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Post by xman on Dec 30, 2017 16:26:19 GMT -5
Are we even sure that Zyuden Sentai Kyoryuger is really all about Daigo Kiryuu (Kyoryu Red)?! I mean, I came in from watching all of Kyoryuger Brave/Power Rangers Dino Force Brave and I am starting to think that Kyoryuger isn't as "Daigo-centric" as many of us "haters" thought it was. Either we didn't understood Riku Sanjou's way of writing Tokusastu shows or maybe our problems with Daigo were either dealing with the post-Kyoryuger sentai shows repeating the same trend of making their red ranger characters all happy-go-lucky reckless idiots, the crossovers, and mis-remembering the past.
What do you guys think? Did we just not understood what was lying underneath the surface?
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Post by Sh Ranger on Dec 30, 2017 18:13:15 GMT -5
When you compare Kyoryu Reds, King and Juyong, I think there's a big difference. King liked to say "We're a team!" but he contradicted that by being perfect all the time and defeating a lot of enemies solo, including the final villain. It didn't feel like a team, more like the hero and his sidekicks and let's not forget his fated girlfriend just in case it wasn't obvious he was the star. Surprisingly, I actually liked King. What I didn't like was the way his character was executed. I believe actions speak louder than words so instead of "We're a team!" which is a nice catchphrase, how about showing me what makes them a team, rather than King-tachi?
Now we examine Juyong. He pointed out everyone's qualities and it was their synergy that allowed them to defeat Brave Kyoryu Gold. In 5 half sized episodes, he did what King couldn't in a full 48 episode series. I feel that Juyong is a real leader, not a one man army, and their teamwork is real. This isn't Juyong-tachi, this is Super Sentai. That's the kind of dynamic I wanted to see in Kyoryuger.
I didn't hate Kyoryuger, it was mostly enjoyable to watch. However it was diminished by King's solo hero character, unnecessary and poorly executed love triangle, derogatory namecalling and abundant OOC moments that were started to ensure an unambiguous happy ending for the perpetually perfect protagonist (nice alliteration huh?), at the expense of everyone else. Especially Amy, whose character was ruined completely, originating from Sanjo making her jealous and spiteful towards Yayoi. It was the only way to make his contrived love triangle happen. It all revolved around King.
In my biased conclusion, I deem my evaluation of King's role in Kyoryuger to be accurate.
P.S. 200th post, yay!
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Post by Kaizoku Blue on Dec 31, 2017 7:03:27 GMT -5
Well, people are entitled to their opinion about the show either way, it doesn't really matter whether they "understand" Sanjo's artistic vision
My major issue with Kyoryuger is hard for me to describe but the best I can do is this: In most Sentai, the team is working together towards the common goal of defeating an enemy. So they're still on level ground even when the show is heavily Red-focused. In Kyoryuger, the team functions primarily as support to Daigo specifically; its goal is to help him to greatness, of which defeating the enemy is just one part. There is no other Sentai that has put the Red on so much of a pedestal as to change the underlying dynamic - the only comparable example I can think of is Power Rangers Mystic Force (and even then the Rangers didn't exist to bolster Nick; it was just made clear that they were surplus to requirements.)
An argument can be made that Kyoryuger's setup is a valid one and still fits the "team" nature of Sentai, but for me, it's selfish and not in keeping with the spirit of the franchise. Kyoryuger's idea of a "team" is closer to that found in many recent Kamen Rider shows, which is fine for that franchise because it is usually about a lone hero
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Post by xman on Jan 1, 2018 7:50:21 GMT -5
So basically, Kaizoku Blue, what you're trying to say is that Riku Sanjou might be better off writing for a Kamen Rider series or an anime series, possibly. As opposed to writing for a Super Sentai series, mainly because he doesn't understand how to write a show where that has a basic premise of five or less individuals working as a squadron and how the team dynamic should be utilized traditionally, or if this was just a new material for him to work with.
Well, I guess I can understand that. But personally, I think Toei really f@#$ed up when they assigned the third dinosaur-themed sentai series to a guy who has freely admitted that he is terrible at writing a large number of cast members in the shows that he is involved in, but can actually treat the audience as if they are thinking people as opposed to certain writers and producers and show-runners who like to talk down to the audience and act like they don't have a brain. Simply because Toei wanted a light-hearted, comedic sentai series with a happy-go-lucky idiotic Red Ranger character leading the team.
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Post by Kaizoku Blue on Jan 1, 2018 10:21:47 GMT -5
^ I think his vision of teamwork is better suited to Kamen Rider, yeah (although the only Kamen Rider he'd written before Kyoryuger was W, which was an exception to the usual setup of "hero and his support crew" because it featured two people as the main Rider plus a female lead with a lot more autonomy than most.) It possibly didn't help that this was Sanjo's first time writing a year-long series all by himself; at least with W he'd had supporting writers on hand to cover some of the episodes
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Post by Sh Ranger on Jan 1, 2018 13:11:17 GMT -5
I agree. Sanjo is good at comedy and bad at character development. He has written good Kamen Rider shows with Drive and W so I think that's definitely his niche. Unfortunately, he always does something stupid in the final arc like Torin's dishonorable death and Kiriko a strong cop heroine becoming a helpless hostage. Kyoryuger's finale is the worst case scenario. I don't think he has a solid understanding of what teamwork is or what a leader is. These are important points in writing successful Super Sentai. That's why a series like Kamen Rider with no more than 2 main heroes is better suited to his flawed style.
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Post by Kaizoku Blue on Jan 1, 2018 13:26:33 GMT -5
Before Kyoryuger, Sanjo was also a supporting writer on Fourze, whose setup was more like that of a conventional Sentai. But then as a sub-writer he didn't create the framework for those characters and that world, so he may have still not had much of a grasp on the dynamic ...
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Post by Sh Ranger on Jan 1, 2018 13:37:57 GMT -5
Kamen Rider Club was a great example of teamwork done right so yeah maybe he was just imitating the head writer's formula.
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Post by xman on Jan 26, 2018 11:39:58 GMT -5
I am currently rewatching Kyoryuger and so far...I don't believe that the show is as "Daigo-centric" as everyone else thought it was. It's just that some people kind of blew this out of the proportion when it first came out thinking that everything revolved around him when it didn't. Hell, there is like so very little instances where it did revolved around him as a character. But that is kind of his way of growing more as an individual than as an traditional leader. I mean, he's not spouting out generic empty platitudes about "how we should be working together as a team" or "how incredibly super-duper awesome we are!" Unlike a certain goody-good two-shoes character that is constantly being killed off five times in a row. Or is acting like such a hypocrite on-screen like another red ranger-character that was written by Toshiki Inoue. He just bein given his own personal character-arc that probably would better in a Kamen Rider series than in a typical sentai series. But, that never stopped me from actually enjoying the show for what is. It's just determined on which episodes tend to give Daigo his own focus in character-development and everyone else gets their own fair share of character-growths. Although, I may have to agree with everyone that the final episodes really shouldn't have shoved the rest of the characters to the side, just to make Daigo like he's Dinosaur Jesus. I mean, before the team split-up individually, the rest of the finale was actually pretty good getting everybody together and working as a team. But, I guess that was probably one of Riku Sanjou's weaker points at writing this show. Other than that, I don't understand the "Daigo" hatred from the fans at all. Now Takeharu and Right Suzuki, on the other hand...those two are the worst since they are both idiotic Red Ranger characters that doesn't really need to be centered-characters at all, in my opinion. Since they pretty much made their teams look like cheerleaders in most of their character-arcs and didn't really do anything to earn their power-up forms or actually had any real development in their characters or motivations in order to grow stronger.
Plus, I actually think that Daigo has more common sense than Right and Takeharu put-together.
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Post by Kaizoku Blue on Jan 27, 2018 5:04:53 GMT -5
^ How is Takeru Tenkuuji in any way relevant to this when he's not a Red nor from a Sentai, and in context of his story what he was saying was not "generic empty platitudes"? And everyone in Jetman was hypocritical; it was basically a melodrama, which Kyoryuger and most other Sentai are not.
Every Red "needs" to be centered because that is the point of them being the Red/hero. But I maintain there is a difference between a Sentai where Red leads a team, vs Kyoryuger where the team exists specifically for the benefit of the Red. And that's why I dislike it and Daigo so much. I have no problem with "idiotic Red Ranger characters" inherently; it's a stock shounen lead. No matter what Right and Takaharu do, at least the entire universe of the show and existence of the team isn't built around their glory. (I also think Right is not that bad and a lot of the things people complain about are to do with the fact that HE IS A CHILD, but that's a post for another day)
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Post by Sh Ranger on Jan 27, 2018 13:07:11 GMT -5
^ Exactly. Even as a solo protagonist, Takeru still understood the concept of teamwork better than King. He owed much of his success to Akari's inventions and Onari's moral support. It's mindblowing that KR series could have better teamwork than Kyoryuger. Yeah, the red is the center and the one with most of the focus, but some get way too much focus. King and also (Shiba) Takeru were arguably the only people that mattered in their respective series.
Now I know, people like to exaggerate the problem with King, due to bias. But there is truth here. King got way more focus than other reds like Takaharu or Yamato. Especially in Yamato's case, it was surprisingly equal between him, Misao and the Zyumen. King was a poorly executed character, especially towards the final arc, but that doesn't mean the archetype is inherently bad.
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Post by xman on Jan 27, 2018 14:37:28 GMT -5
^ How is Takeru Tenkuuji in any way relevant to this when he's not a Red nor from a Sentai, and in context of his story what he was saying was not "generic empty platitudes"? It just the way he was being written and potrayed as a character in Kamen Rider Ghost. Duh?! I mean, do you happened to know someone that actually wants to relate to Takeru Tenkuuji in real-life as being another generic goody-good two-shoes spouting out empty platitudes about "how important it is to be human!", etc.?! Think about it.
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Post by Kaizoku Blue on Jan 27, 2018 14:59:18 GMT -5
^ He's not a "generic goody-good two-shoes" and of course being human is important to him, he's a ghost who wants to return to his previous human life! (I wonder if you would describe Ryuuga Banjou in Build as "spouting out empty platitudes about freedom" for instance?) And we've very rarely if ever had any Sentai Reds like Takeru anyway with the exception of maybe Alata ...
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Post by Gokai Gaburincho on Jan 28, 2018 14:19:44 GMT -5
What I'm about to say, I know I'm gonna be in the minority on, and by minority, I mean no other person in this fandom is gonna agree with me on this, but that's fine. I just wanted to put this out there.
This "red-centric" thing people always complain about doesn't bother me as much as it does other people, and when it does, it doesn't bother me in the same way. I don't care how much a sentai wants to focus on red, as long as you at least make all of the other rangers interesting, and even then, if you don't, it won't ruin a show for me. For example, I love Gekiranger, and it's number 3 on my ranking list, but I will be the first person to tell you that Ran and Retsu are bland characters, but I love the show because I love Jan and his story.
I feel similarly that way with Zyuohger. I like Zyuohger, but I feel like Yamato and Misao are the only ones that got any development, and one of these characters, I don't even like. I don't care about the Zyumen, but I don't necessarily blame the writers for that. As much as I think Bungley is the best villain in that show, he completely ruins the pacing of the show, and the Zyuland storyline gets sidelined because of him. I think Zyuohger would have been a better show if it wasn't an anniversary season, and Yamato is the only main ranger character I care about. To me, Gekiranger and Zyuohger are more egregious examples of red-centric, but it doesn't ruin the whole show for me.
As for Kyoryuger, my main problems with the complaints with Kyoryuger is when people say Daigo ruins the whole show. Kyoryuger is a silly show, so if that show's sense of humor doesn't work for someone, or if they had other problems with the show, that's fair, but any conversation about the problems with Kyoryuger always starts with Daigo, and people act like the show focuses on him so much, that he takes over the whole show, and that there's little time for the other characters, and I just don't see it. I've heard people call the show "Daigo and friends" and...that other stupid name that I won't dare repeat, but I know you've heard of it.
I'm definitely not saying people have to like Daigo, or that I don't get why people don't like him, but the idea that the show is Daigo-centric, I just don't agree. In fact, I feel exactly the opposite. I feel like the other characters are well-developed, and that Daigo is just the weakest link in the chain. I will never defend Daigo as a great character, because I think he's just a bland stereotype of that archetype. I love the other characters in the show, but Daigo, he's just there to me, so the amount of hate this show always gets because of him is insane to me. It's just downright ironic to me.
About the archetype itself, it's an archetype I don't care for, but that doesn't mean you can't create likable characters from it, the same way I don't like horror movies, but I do like The Cabin and the Woods and the new It movie. I like Ryoga, Sosuke, and especially Alata, and I would even say Lucky, for the most part, is a far cry from the way he was at the beginning of the show. I don't hate Daigo, but I don't love him. Personally, I think Takaharu and Kenta (yes, that Kenta) are worse examples of this archetype.
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Post by xman on Feb 5, 2018 15:11:36 GMT -5
Well, as someone who has just recently finished rewatching Zyuden Sentai Kyoryuger. I actually agree with on most parts of your post, Gokai Gaburincho. I mean, I don't understand this whole "Daigo-centric" hatred coming from the majority of the fandom. But, I can't say that Daigo is among my favorite sentai reds, since that honor belongs to Gokai Red, Magi Red, Shinken Red and possibly Time Red and Ninja Red. But as a character, he's just "okay". Now, Takeharu from Ninninger...yeah, he sucks. Lucky, well. He's kind of spoiled brat, in my opinion. But, I hated Right's character from Toqger. Still, I thought Daigo was "okay". Not terrible, but certainly not among the best sentai red characters. Now, in-terms of being an idiot sentai red, nope! It's still Takeharu. Daigo's the anti-idiot with common sense. Hell, I say Amy/Kyoryu Pink was the actual reckless moron of the group than Daigo.
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